edited by ROBERTC. BRASTED
impact
University of Minnesota Minnaanolia MN 55d55
Interview with Harry B.. Gray Braaed. We are del ghted to have yod as a gurst on o ~ campus, r particularly n weu 01 me lam that yo^ are the Koltnolf -actLrer Or Kolmoll was me f.rst ntervewee m i n s IMPACT serles dave yo2 nad olner .nteractms wtth Or Kalthoff over your career? Gray: I had a very early interest in amlytical Ehemisby, and i became familiar with much of Dr. Kolthoff's work as early as the mid-50's. I always wondered what he would be likeas an individual. Ifinally met him many years later. but this is first time h e ever had a chanceto sit down and talk wiih him. He is a sand aentleman acd scholar in his 87th ,~~ "ear. Brasled: He is indeed a w r y remarkable man. HaveW r e been any particular influencingfactors, either high school, parental, or others that you feel were important contributions in your decision to be a chemist Or to enter academic life? Gray: My early life was spent in Kenhxky. My father and mother set high academic standards for me, but they weren't chemists. As far back as I can remember I have had a love of chemistry end chemical experiments. Iset up a l a b m w in my basement when Iwas in junia high schoal. A s h home-(Kawn chemistry expert. i was called upon to make such impwtant items as smoke bombs for high school plays. Ididn't have a very strong high school chemistry course. Most of the science courses were taught by members of the coaching staff. This is n d an unfamiliar pattern around the country, especially in small towns. Even though I didn't have a strong formal education, by the time i took W h i s b i mune Ihad done so much lab w& on mv own and read enaurh bmks that Iwas "haaked." i was petty sure mat Iwanted to be a chemist. mere just is no simple explanation far this strong interest and the curiosity that Ihad and still have. Brasled: There is no question that you have the most important ingredient Of being a scientist-curiosity. Your graduate bainlng alter Kentudry was at, I believe. Nollhwestern University. was it not? Was there any special driving force for (lain0 to that institution? Gray: ;went lo hollhwestern tJn v m 4 y becauss I had heard mat it had an exce ent graomte program n cnemirtry. At Ncdhuestern I was greatly influenced by two people. Frea Basolo and Ralph Pearson, wno were excned a b m the so-called renaissance of inorganic chemistry. Their enthusiasm was very contagious, and Isigned up with them with the goal of studying the substitution reactions of square planar platinum complexes in a mwe systematic fashion than had been done before. Mv interests in inaraanic reaction mechanisms have cont "&a to the present. as fa^ probably mow. but now the empnas s m my rerearcn has snoned to mslaliaprotemelectron transfer reactms an0 norgan.c photoredox systems. Brasled: At what point did you feel that you wantedto move into bioinwgsnic chemistry? I see here a m a i n lesson for young people entering academic research areas. Gray: My research in bioinorganic chemishy was started through two main imeractions at Calumbia in hmM0's. One involved mu =lase associatian with the Rockefeller Unversity. As yo> know, me Rockefeller is WemendOusly strong in biological chemsuy. Students there were very aware of my merests in transition metal chem stry and me possloie avalaps wim o8ology. They mought a person with my background could make a contributionto biochemistry. The second interaction that influenced me greatly was one with Harvey Schugar, which started at Columbia and continued at Caltech. Hamy began researching thaaquwus chemistry of iron in me fenic state, and he found that iron in certain biolwical systems is n i t all that different from simoler iron chemistrv based m EDTA comp exes The callaooratwe research wlth Harvey Schugar, coupled w m several sl.mdatmg lntoraclsonsat me Rocksfeler, ed me deeply into s M es of oron n b~olog#cal systems I in nu especmlly of our won on hemeryihrmand M i i n , which paved W way fo+ later studies of hoxibatiMweduction reactions of iron and copper proteins. My decision to devote most of my time to bioinorganic chemistry did not occur overnight. Ramer, over an extended period Ibecame increasingly interested in the role of metal ions in biological systems throwh many interactions with coileaoues all over the world. Alter four ~~-or five years of s ~ c hnleract 0"s Idecoded lo ntenslty my own researcn in me field. Brasled: You nave madea very nterening, and Ilnnk, mportan! comment that your work has come about through interactions with colleagues, nd only in your local area, but also in other parts of the c o u W and the world. Many in ~~
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Journal o f Chemical Education
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universily life are finding that professionaltravel is being restricted. Thus a "is) to some other institutiona a conference in another country is suspect. Would you agree that a major strength of the American educational system is me mobility and our capacity to interact, not only with people in this country, but with people in other countries? Could I move to a slightly different area? You have had a very. large . number of .omole . who have worked with vou at various ~-~levals~ - ootn graduate an0 undergraduate ts mere any partoc~larway in wn ch yo. approach the inlervew or thediscussms wlmyo.ng persons? Can yo< makeany prognosis as to tne r success in graoLale work either through records or conversation? Gray: Iobviously agree with your assessmentoftha importanceofbeing able to interact lreeiy with colleagues at home and abroad. Turning to your second question, Ievaluate students initiaiiv . bv. their level of enthusiasm far scholarlv work. Igo less on academlc records man on W gut feel ng mat Iget from mem in ConverSations It is very dlfl'cu 1, however, to f gMe on how well lhey are actually going lodoas scnolars. B ~ t IaIwant to know atflrsl .shaw mtererted and excited they are about research. Are they willing to put in the time and sacrifice, as it wwe, d-at is -to isam todoa p r w i o b in labwamry. Ithrive on working wlth people who love what they are doing. Idon't view what Vm doinoas work at all. Iview it as an excitinoventure anda lot of fun. An overacnever lo mare llkey to ftr fntomy group man me superbrlght person who d e s n Iseem m be very merested m h s a net won thmkthat over me years. for whatever reason% I have been successful in idgong the aot toes of y o ~ n g people. Brasle Ihave known you f a same two decadesdating back to ow Elmpesn experiences, yours in D e n m and mine in Germany. I've heard you lecture on many occasions, and I know that your own enthusiasm is e well-known characleristic. That brings up anomer question. Have you ever fen that be time you have devoted to either undergraduate or graduate teaching has interfered w
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Harry Gray is the recipient of numerous recognltlons and awards that reprepent his highly succeslul efforts both In pure research and In communication in the teaching field. In recent years he and hls r e smrch group have made slmilicant contrlbutlonr l o blolnomanic
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while Dr. Gray war vlsltlng the Universlly ol Minnesota as the Kolhon Lecturer Dr. Koltholl W a 6 the f ~ r r "IMPACT" t Interrl.ree
constrained you in your "learning" or research pursuits? This is, of course, the often bandied about dichotomy question. Do you enjoy bath of these aspects of academic life? Gray: Yes. I've never been able to separate, in my own mind, teaching and research. 80th are p a l of the excitement of chemistry. . Iref - verv. excited when I am teachmg In nk aba.1 d fterent ways to approach a rbo,ect every t m e I team 11 Iam =,a0 that at tlmes nare other d l estnat requre metared~cemy leachong cammltmsnt I've taught at all levels. from freshman courses to advanced graduate w u m s and evevthing in between. You know thet Iparticipated in an experiment in chemical education with George Hemmonda few yearsago. Some observations abaut this experiment may answer yaur question directly. George and I volunteered to add the teaching that was pan of this highly exDerimental orwram to ow m m a l load. Rather then feelino terribiv overburdened. I was incred bly anx ous to get on roththe expermem Researehand tsacn ng 00th nu0 vo nleract ons w l n co ceagues an0 st~oenlsTeach ng allows us to exchange ideas, ana a gwes usan apponm ty lothlnk of new ways to present ideas and results. I can't imagine the day when Iwould want to say to someone. "I don't want to do any more teaching." Brasled: Your experience with Georga actually influenced me to a point where IcOamaed a small bmk, onethet I'm suremat no one on this side ofthe Atlantic has ever read. it was wrinen in German for enoineers. The essential format that i used was youdivision into structure. dynamics, and synthesis. Other than your experiment, do you see any major mcdificationsthat would improve our total educational system? Gray: Ibelieve that laboratory instruction needs vast overhauling. Time and financial wnstraints have led to aur losing gmund in the training of young people in experimental chemistry. This concerns me deeply. Many people, especially those in administration. willhv tataketheeasv wavaut. The "cheao" solution
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and manpower. But the price of laboratory excelience is onethis country must pay. The next ten years are critical. We need more people, equipment, and facilities: and we also must find ways to renew anmaded facilities and equipment. The advances we have seen in chemistrydemandextensive instruction in modern instrumentation. It should be a standard Dart of basic chemical trainino. This sort of tram ng adds up lo a very, very large of As a country we cadla p o r e me cows, o q s l l l r and prcadctsabroad.ano seer penny-waeana po~nd-faol,sn s h m c m 81 mok or oy am*. however. we m a t kesp me exper menm va nmg of our chemists at the state of the art. To return to the HammondlGray "dream," I believe mat the lab is the bast place to learn about descriptive reaction chemistry, and about the methodsof synthesis and charactwiration of organic and inaganic compcmds. What bener dace than the laboratorvto achieve some intearation of aroanic "~ and inoroanic cnem,sIry7 Perhaps th.s r 16 happen n me nexr decade or two At tne moment. however, we have a crisis an our hands mat stems from me fact that basc norganic the-try has beensqueezedout of the core chemistry curriculum. The dimensions of this crisis are outlined in several articles (J. CKM. EDUC.. Nc"ember 1980) based on presentations made at a national ACS symposium. I participatedin that symposium, as did many other chemists. Out of it came a reasonable olsn f a inaroaoic ehemistrv in the core cuniculum. Ib e that olan or someln ng close lo t can be imp emented tosnempt more lntegratmnof organlc and naganlc chemistry in amanced c o r n s Intern saplmary advanew courses wouid be a good place to cover some important topics in modern industial chemistry, f a example. Brasled: YOUmay be interested in knowing lhat another interviewee, a gwd hiendof yaws and mine, ProfC. N. R. Rao of Bangalwe, made a vwysimilar plea. Do you feel. Harry, the1 the Federal Government has had a role in shaping, either or both. education and research?Can vou think of anv oositives or neoawes this partc~larareal We are genmg a 01 of po nts of view in tneacaoem c commmty DOyou teal we are oe ng over y constrained n wnat we can O r cannot do in the universities because of government influence? Gray: Ithink there could be serious problems i f we continue along certain paths. For example, it is counterproductive far the government to hold out financial canots that have the effect of turning the best basic researcherstoward BDDlied Droblems. Idon't believe basic and aoolied - - ,can .. . . research in chemistw -~ oe aone well in me ram maoorataryResearcn that is motiratgl by curios ty am interest rnmt be fosterec ana supportea mean me kmd of research w tn no predefined end product. I believe as a country we must make sure there are enough funds to support the people who are really creative, so they can pursue their research in an unconstrained fashion. Brasfed: On that point, do you think that other countries are able to operate with more freedom than we do? Gray: thmk some countr es do I suspect that me machan~rmramployec m lm ng me Max P a m Inn.Mes m me Fmem Rep.blc of Germany are better then tnose of our government agencms People ~ h are o really creatwe hare adequate funding in these institutes, and they have time to pursue their research. We are crippled in a relative sense, because we have to devote an immense amount of time lo fund raising. in this connection i can ray t k t Iam very m c h in favor a1the NSF experiment involving much shorter proposals with emphasis on the scientific track record of the investigator. I believe that people with ~
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demonstratedtrack recnds should have at least a partial line of credit until their productivity starts hopping, as established by peer review. An ouManding p e r m should be allowed to follow what he or she thinks is impwtant rather than be constrained by what someone else might think is important. Blasted: ltls obvious that yaur scientific and academic life are full yet Iknow mat you have interestsoutside of the academic community. Do you feel that the scientist, the chemist mare specifically, has a role in the broader community life? Gray: Yes1 i think we have a responsibility to communicate with the public; to communicate the excitement of chemistry and of chemical discovery; the importance of our awn work, and what wearedoing with it. In formal ways we can fulfili this commitment by givingpublic lectures whenever we can. It isour obliaationto keep the public uo to speed. so tomeak. Manv . omd . Drwramsthet tell of chemicai discbverv are now beina . ;boutaSDectS - - - ~ - .orcducedbvbur Public BroadcastingSystems ena thE11educat on te evir on We mdst keep n mad. nowever. mat me p r w u n on of merest ng programs wnn nonnvia nfamatmon content requires substantial commitments ot valuable time and hard cash. Brasled: Perhaps we could carry this a bit further. Is thereanything that we can do to provide useful information to those who are already in a position of political decision making? It always b m s me Umt we have no motemen about one twm of chemisby in the 4 year cuniculum, p m a p s less, f a Mnanscience major, expecting that we can somehow make a person scientifically astute in this period of time, hopefully providing a,science background that will last the rest of their lives. I can't buy this. What can we do that is bener7 Gray: Ithink mat we can do bener. Many elected officials are looking for help from the scientific community. Reliable scientific information is not somelhing that they wili shy away from. i have found in my own experience that state and federal lawmakers are anxious to learn more about science and engineering. Ithink that we have to be available when needed. We are dealino. for the most pan ~ 8 t h nlgnly ednated an0 me11gent persons wno havs a des re to oecome bener mformed aoout rc em t c manerr We should f nd enocen ways to get informationto them while they are in office. We cannot depend on coursework at the undergraduate level to provide this sort of science education. because our legislatorsoften need a much more specific and detailed understandingof the issues than can be provided by any course geared to college students. I believe that we need soecific. issuarelated. an-the-soot science trainina for our government officials in several areas of immense national and intern* tional importance. Energy production and utilization, envlranmental quality. materials production, food production, health care, national defense, and space exploration are areas where appropriate educational packages could be extremely helpful. Now. Bob. i believethat it isaur responsibility aschemicaieducators, through Our professionalorganizations such asthe American Chemical Sociehr and its Divisionof Chemical Education. to move in and help out. It is mv v ew the1 a Iforan,ot vdempes om whrcn dw tecnnocal comments of key Issuer are faced sqme I and presentedc early oy one a more e x p m would be a most welcome aaat on to me reference materials avat ao e to eg slatars and meor staffs. Brasled: All of lhis represents exciting passibilities. b is something that Ifeel the Division of Chemical Education could pursue. Our Education Department in the Societv would be a natural for consultation. I can't h e i but ~ believe that tn 5 r nd of pro ect woulaappeal lo csrtam of me f ~ n ng d agencmr Oov ously ,I woula not be sometn ng that W O L 0.3 ~ enterec lnlo Igmly We would n e w the nest p o ~ ~ t bprofe~slona le help With y o u permosslon woud r e lo pursa it fwther with the Division. To move on, Iknow that we don't have to convince the readers of the JOURNAL that a Professor of Chemistry has interests other than the classrwm and the labaatny. Iknow something of yaur efforts on the tennis courts, and I've had the privilege of meeting some of your family. Haveany of vour shown an interest in , vaur .orofession? , - children ~ Gray: Shirley and have three chloren, a lo1 whom havs a great c~liosityand a der re to earn Our oadgnter vlcki is a senlor a! Stanfora.At me moment me has a strong interest in engineering design, especially as it relates to biomedical research. Our son Andy is a chemistry major at Princeton, and he appears to be headed f a a career in medicine or medical science. Our eight-year-ald son. Noah, wants immediate and definitive answers to mughly a thousand questions aday, and at times he drives us bany. He laves bugs of ail kinds. He cacheamem and takes them mart. ~-~~ . alleoedlv to find out what thev're made of. Entamolaav -. wou d oe a natura a-lle! - as long as the o ~ g s lasl. He also nangr out n my la~otdlorywhenever ne nas a spare moment More often man not ne cons one of my students, Dan Nocera, into "assisting him" with his experiments. Liquid nitrogen and dry ice fascinate him, and he uses these substances to s M y the properties of bugs at low temperatures. I see a lot of myself in Noah-I'm not sure when he wili get around to making smoke bombs, but it will probably be well before Idid. Brasled Sounds like a clone to me. I've enjoyed this vwy much. Harry. Tknk you for thelime you have given us. Now Wet Ithink of it. Iamapproaching this interview with somewhat of a paternal air. You are my academic nephew since your mentw Fred Basoband I are "rons"of John Bailarand, k e f w e , academic brothers. lthink yola and Iwouid both agree that John is a very great person, a great scientist and humanitarian. Ican see mat a lot of John has been b-ansmitted to you through Fred. ~7
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Volume 59
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Number 10
October 1982
829
