Interview with
PAUL H. EMMEll Portland State University Porfland. Oregon 97207
Paul H. Emmett edRed by
ROBERT C. BRASTED University of Minnesota Minneapolis. Minnesota
PETER FARAGO
interviewed by
Burlington House London, England
Burlron H. Davis Potomac State College Keyser, West Virginia 26726
Davis: / I is a h y s of intwest to knowswnefhing of the early backgwnd that may have influencedyour choice of chemistfyas a career. Emmen: The initial interest occurred in high school. I took the college preparatory course with no science until I visiied a faculty advisor in mv senior vear. This visit took olace wellalono in the first term so that there was only one semester in which to make a career choice. Afier examinino mv . wade - record. she decided that I belonged in science or engineering because of a r a t k high grade average in my technical cwrses, particularly in math. Accordingly. she arranged to have me si@ up for physics and chemisiry in my senior year in high school. Thb is how I became interested in chembhy. Our chemisiry teacher was one "Willie" Green who was a well known h& school teacher who had taugMLinus Pauling, ihe Nobel prize winner, the previous year. Davis: Was there a special parental influence? Emmen: No, my father was a railroad man, a self-made railroad man who learned much practical engineering and, among many other things, became a powder expert. He was sought out by DuPont, Hercules, and other powder companies for s p g cia1jobs of handling explosives. But this hadno influence on my final choice of a career. Davis: Youarea case whwe b h a chemistry taacheranda highschwl guidance munselor had iremndous influence m your career and your later life. Emmen: Yes, completely so. I was guided into chemistry andphysics. I became anached to chemisiry and so my career was started. Davis: You mentionedlh. Pauling; I understand he was a high school "dropout. " Emmeit Yes. wasa h l g h s c h w l ~ p o u tAs . Iundentandihe story, as he came to the last half of his senior year, he was short credits in two history courses. He planned to take them both but was told that they had to be taken in succession. He even appealed to the principal of the school but he faNed to get permission. So he promptly took two math courses in place of the histofycourses andat the endof ihe year quietly went to Oregon State and was admiliedas a college student Many years later, after he hadreceived two NobelPrizes, he was awardedanhononvy high school degree by Washinghm High Schwl. As far as I know. this mav be the onlvhonoraw . hioh school degree ever awardedanyone. Davis: This brinas to mindat least three Nobel Prize winners that have been-"dropouis:" Einstein, Woodward,and Pauling. Do you
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have any views on how students of this calibre could be encouraged to stay in school? Emmen: 1think that perhaps ihe schools are slmplynot flexible enough for the people in the genius class. Minor rules, such as not taking two courses at one time, are given too much e m phasis. Idon't know the cases of WwdwardandEinstein in &icular, bui certainly in Linus's case ihere was never any ouestion of wirermining in school. He simply "dmppedofl i f high school into college. Davis: Where did you decide to go to undergraduate school and what made you decide on your college? Emmen: h the fall of 1918, in looking over the possibleplaces where one could go and take chemistry, it turned out that Oregon State had no chemistry department except in agricultural chemistry. However, they did have a chemical engineering department. Since it seemed likely that I would be working in industry afier gening a chemical engineering iraining, I decided fo take chemical engineeringat Oregon Staie. This was ~ . a r t.l vbecause it was in Oreoon. . it was the coileqe . closest lo home, and was an artrachve place io live. Davis: Were there any mshuctors at Orewn State that hada particular influence on you? Emmen: Yes, the freshman chemistry teacher, Professor John F. G. Hicks was a most unusual teacher. He was particularly interested in qualitativeanalysis andusedit as a basis for developing logical thinking in chemistry. He was pafiicularly exasperating sometimes because he kept a double set of books for grades. If on a quiz in which there were ten questions, we answered nine of them perfectly but pulleda real boner on the tenth one. he would mark it, perhaps with a grade of 50 and add a "Chemical Engineer, WOW!!". Many of us had long argumenk about the grades but, in all, he was trying to emphasize and teach us not to make foolish mistakes and to do quamilative thinking in any chemisfry course. Actually this was qualitative analysis and general chemishy combined. Davis: Q~!alitativeanalysis has now been deemphasired in m n i years
Paul Emmett is a distinguished authority on catalysis and adsorntion of eases on solids. He was horn in Portland, Oregon in 1900 and served a faeultv member at Johns Honkins university for over twenty years. He is amemher of the ~ationalAcademy ofsciences and s recipient of the Kendall Award in Colloid and Surface Chem-
in chemistry. Do you think that this direction should be reversed? Emmen: As taught by Professor Hicks, qualitative analysis wasan excellent place to teach logical thinking in chemistry. The choice of a methodof separating components depended on a number of collectiveproperties, and it was a very clear cut game to beable to separate the componentsby the shortest possible means if one knew they were present or of searching unknowns for these components if the system happenedto be one that was not analyzed. So lpersonally think that the essentials of qualitative analysis constitute a very goodbasis for teaching pan of freshman chemistry. Davis: The same principles, of c m wwidapply to organic chsmisiiy and its instruction. Logic is certainly the key. Do you have any suggestions for the teacher on this subject. Emmett: Logic in the sense of orderly andaccurate reasoning should be the possessionof every well-trainedscientist. Iknow of no magic method of developing it. However, efforts in the direction of teaching students to "think, " either by seeking the explanation of statements in textbooks or h interpreting experimental observations are steps in the right direction. The important thing is to by to develop a critical attitude towardproblem, observationsand statements. The methods to be used in helpingstudenb to achieve sound reasoning are beyondmy humble ability to advise. In my own case, I feel that the qualitative analysis course as taught by my Fmfessor Hi&s and four years of college debatinghave been outstanding aids in my search to attain a sound reasoning capability that may be briefly expressed by the word logic. Davis: Cuniculumchanges are continuous in this day. Inoticedin y w r program at Oregon State you had a course in "Blacksmithing. " Emmeti: Yes, the chemical engineering course at Oregon State in 1918- 1922, during the years that Linus Pauling and iwere there includeda variety of engineeringcourses, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, industrial chemistry, math, a ceriainamwnt of English, humanlties, anda few oW courses including one on blacksmithing. The real purpose of the blacksmiihingcome was to teach somethinginrega!d to the working of metals, not "making horse shoes." We did learn to temper metals and proper conditions for welding. ltprobably was not the best course in the world, but it 1.5 an interestingfact that he went on to become an authority on metals and alloys and to the study of iron as a synthetic ammonia catalyst. Davis: In continuingyour higher education, you went to Cal Tech and were one ofa class of fourchemishyPh.D.'s. M I remember correctly, only four Ph.0. 's in Chemistry hadbeenawarded at Cal Tech prior to this. Emmett: Yes, that is true. Cal Tech hadbeen establishedabout 1919 or 1920. Robert A. Millikan hadbeen brought out to headthe institute, and several outstanding faculty were selected including A. A. Noyes in chemistry, R. C. Tolman in theoretical chemistry and statistical mechanics, and Dr. Epstein in physics. The schoolappeared to have high quality and good prospects even though i t hadbeenorganizedas a graduate school for only two or three years. One of the factors that may have infiuencedme to go there was the fact that they were payinghigher stipends to graduate shldents than most schools. As Irecall, they were paying $750 per year to an assistant which is twice as muchas some ofher sdwols were payingat the time. Davis: At ihe time you were M,was thwe any indication that this was a s c h l that was going to become established to the extent that it has? Emmen: 1fen from the quality of the faculty that ihe sdwol hada bright future, and the years that Ispent there made me more convincedthan ever that it was an outstandingschool. Iwas influenced by Linus Pauling who also haddecMedonCal Tech They were very particularabout picking their st&nts. Both Linus and Iwere requiredto work out every problem in the
first nine chapters of ihe book by Noyes and Sherillent~Yled "Chemical Prffii~ks." This was really a came in advanced physical chemistry for both of us. These problems were checkedoverby one of theprofessors at Cal Tech anddiscussed with us before we were officially admitted to the school. The care with which they were making their selections also len the impression that it was going to be a very good graduate school. Davis: One of the things that has stuck with you during ihe years has beenyour afternoon nap. How did this come about? Emmen: Ifound, to my dismay, that Iwas frequently very sleepy during and aner seminar sessions. A young doctor diagnosed the problem, telling me that some people have difficulty maintaining a constant high pace all day long. It would be wise to lie down and relax bv trvino to sleeo for ten minutes at m.Even now Ican lie down at noonpraciically any place where there is no danaer of beino steDpedon, slew for ten minutes, and wake ~ ~ ~ i t h w t a n ~ d i f f i c u l t ybe a nrefreshed d all the afternoon. Davis: Ywr researchadvisor at Cal Tech was Dr. Benton. How didyou come to work for him? Emmen: In those days the headof the chemistrydepartment Dr. A. A. Nops, discussed various possibilities with the graduate studsnts as thev came in and then assi4ned them to some particuiar individual for researchat the beginning of ihe first year. Idon'trecall whether other choices were given me or not, but Ido recall that Ibecame interestedin the idea of working h catalysis when he discussed the kinds of things ihat Dr. Benton was trying to do. He was on a fellowship of ihe National Research Council. having come directly from Rincehm Universify, Mere Fmfesw H. S. Taylor was doing ihe outstandingcatalytic researchin this Cwnrry. So ielected to work for D ., Benton. Davis: Bothyou and Dr. LeonardDrake in surface area, smalland large pore structures are a tribute to his direction in physicaladswpilon andsurface chemistry. Thus, he irainedtwo people who Dreny weN cowed surface deienninations. Was there any special characteristic that he had that ledyou in thb direction? Emmett: Iwas impressedespeciallyby the fact that he was an expert experimentalist h absorption phenomena. He had lots of know-how In handling gases, and doing adsorption-kinetic work. So he was a good teacher from the practical standpoint. Actually, lcarried out a thesis with him that was concerned with the examinationof certain autocatalyiicreactions and not with adsorption. For example, when copper oxide is being reduced wiih h-n, ihe rate stam out very slowlv.. rises to a maximum. and then decreases. Harwarentlv rakes place by creating iMIe reaciive centers of &j& f& which ihe reaciion spreads to aN of the adjacent copper oxide more readily ihan ii occurs on the flat surfaces of copper oxide. Ishrdied, therefore, ihe reductionof nickeloxides and iron oxides by hydrogen to see whether the auto- catalysis existed in any other oxide systems. This was the subject of my thesls.
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Davis: What was the state of the art of adsorption and catalysisas y w were entering me field? Emmen: When Ientered Cal Tech in 1922, chemicaladsorption and physical adsorption had both been defined by Professors Taylor, Benton and Langmuir. There was a linle confusion because certainschwb ca1M chemicaladswotion...w i m m adso~ption:others cailed lt seconaUy adsorption. By this time it was Drettv adsorotionshouldbe . well aoreed - that Dhvsicai . . caliedphysicaladsorption and chemical adsorption was of e chemical nature and probably was best described as chemical adsorption. Early in the 20's. the name chemisorption was adopted. Physicists later termedphysicaladsorptionphysisorption but both of these terms were deveC oped after Istarted in the field in 1922. Catalysis was well summarizedas of 1922 by a book translatedby E. Emmet Reid of the original French book by Sabatier entitled "Ca-
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talysis and Organic Chemistry." Later Emmet Reid republished this, and I summarizedall the catalysis that had been reportedbeiween 1922and 1965 ina bmkcalled "Cafalysis: Then and Now." Taylor and Rideal had just published their book on 'CatalyHc & i n c i p l e s a n d L a i r A s in the midst of his shrdies on metallic filaments. Sabatier had carriedout a number of hydrogenation reactions over nickel catalysts. However, for fhe most pan in 1922,most basic research on catalysis remained to be done. Davis: Do you consider the Brunauer-Emmen-Teller equation for physical adsorption your major contribution or was there some other work you consider more important? Emmen: Probably the BET work will remain as the major contribution though one of the most intriguing andsatisfying results that I obtained was in a research to ascertain whv the water aas constant for the water gas shifi reaction H20 CO = C02 H2 had two different experimental values. As of 1930 if one measured this equilibrium directly, one obtained one set of values. On ihe other hand, if one measured ihe eouilibrium value for ihereactionsFe+ &O= H2 ~ e 0 a n d c 0 +FBO = CO, Fe and combinedthesetwo equations, one should obtain the equilibrium constant for the water gas shifireactions. The water gas shifi e~uilibriumconstant obtained indirectly was about 40% smallwthan ihe direct value. In "law of the fact that the water gas shifi reaction was important in ammonia syntheses on which I workedaner I wen1 to the Fixed Nitrogen Laboratory, 1designed some experiments to by to findout ihe cause 01 ihis 40% discrepancy. This hKned out to be a very surprising and interesting series 01 experiments. Entering into the success of o w efforts was the fact that we did not have a piece of quartz long enough to go through a furnace in which we wanted to carry out the experiments so we had the glassblower seal a quartz tube 2 mm in diameter onto a ouarfr tube 2 cm in diameter. We ihen inserteda boat of i m ohde at thejunction of ihese two tubes andarranged to circulate water vaoor-hvdrwen in both di. . rections thrwgh ihis mte. TO ow surprise we to~ndthatwhen the circulation was in fhe direction going out the small tube, the ratio of water vapor to hydrogen lor the equilibrium reaction was 40% different from that ootained when the reaction mixture was circulaiedout through the 2 c m tube. We suggested rhat the result was due to thermal diffusion. According to this,.if one end of a tube containing a mixture of gases 01 different molecular weights is heated, the light gas will tend to concentrate h fhe hot end of me tube: the heavy gas will gravitate toward the cold end With a temperarure gradient of 100PC in an ordinary tube, a mixture of heIiu~mxmOn dioxide w& tend to separate so that ihe helium would become m e concenirated in the hot end of the tube and the C02 in the cold endof the tube. So in these experiments in the water vaporhydrogen mixture fhe water vapw tended to go toward the mom temperature end of the tube and the hydrogen tended to stay in the hot part of the tube. This thermal diffusion effect amounted to about 40% for water vapor-hydrogen . . at a temoerature of about 100P compared to room temperature andaccounted for the experimental results. This result was probably the most satisfying of my career, but /suspect that the BET work will be longer remembered as a very useful tool for catalvtic chemi&. Davis: Your most satisfying work came about fromyour beinoable to pursue some point that came up unex&ctedly. w e keep hearing m e andmreabwtresearch that is goahriented Do you have any comments or ideas along these lines? Emmen: Yes. I think that the kind of research ihat appeals to many people is to be able to follow Ideas they have on carrying2 research regardless of whether they are going to be applicable or not. This is a personal goal that l~havea/&& cherished. Ihave accordhgly directed my career in such a way as to remain capable of doing the type waX that I wanted to do, following the leads that I ran across, and performing the experiments that appealed to me, mostly in the catalytic
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rasearch f k M As a manerof fact Way, 1think ihet if is very unfortunate that it is so hard to get support for pure, basic research because it is out of this basic research that the ideas come, that tomorrow will be practical and applicable. Davis: You mention fwrdng of msearch. WWouMyw rompare ihe method of funding when y w started out to that of today? Emmen: When I started my research. I was at the fixed Nihogen R k search Laboratory, which was a government research laboraioiy that had been set up immediately afiw ihe First WwM War with the view to learn the details of how to f h nitrogen. if shouldn't be necessary to stress that fixednitrogen is the basis for fertilizer's as well as niirate explosives. The F M N i t r w n Research Lahatory was created shorlfy afier the First WwM War andgiven a free hand to examine alldifferent methcds for fixing nitrogen. A considerable portion of the work at the Fixed Nitrogen Laboratory, was devoted to learning how to make catalysts and to operate reactors in such a way as to produce ammonia on a commercial basis. Recall that the Germans were successful in catalytic a m monia production from N, and Hz before WWI. By the time that larrivedat the Fixed Nitrogen Laboram, this had been preny well accomplished. Peter Larson was in charge of such work at the Fixed Nitrogen Laboratory and later was in charge of similar work at the OuPont Laboratory. The financing, therefore, for the first eleven years of my life in research was automatically done by the government. The next seven years were spent at The John Hopkins University in the Chemical Enginzering Department. There, the smallamount of money necessary for research was mostly W e n out of ihe b e t of ihe Schwl of Chemical Engineering. 1do recaNsmal1 funds that came -Awn companies like the Cabof Company that were inferesied in the surfacearea work that we were doing but most of the perid gants were relatively sn~llanddifficuifto obiain. l?%e of 1937-43 was one in which it became very evident that it was difficuli to findmoney to finance basic research. After the Manhattan Project, when I went to the Mellon Institute, again I was on a project financed by one of the oil companies, Gulf Oil Company, so that financing was no problem. Only when I went to John Hopkins in 1955 did the question of finances come up. By then fortunate% the Naval Research Laboratory, the Army Air Corps, the National Science Foundation, and the Peiroleum Research Fund were all available as possible sources of support for catalytic work. The AEC should be mentioned. My connections with the Manhanan Project were helpful in obtaining funds from that source during much of my 16 years at John Hopkins. TOreturn to your earlier question. I do not object to orientedresearch.I objeci to the "short-term payoui"research whichpresents or makes difficult shifting to new directions in research. Davis: One ofyour popularly repmducedcalculations is one of calculating the number of acres ofsurface in a quantity of soil. Is there a story here? Emmn: When I was at ihe Fixed Nibogen Laboram, if was mcesay always for the direcior of the laboratory toappear before a Congressional appropriation cornminee to emphasize the things that they were wanting to do. At the time that we worked out a method for measuring the surface area of materials, it occurred to us that it would be interesting to messure the surface area of soil. When we didso we found that the best soils andsoil colloids hadareas amounting to about 40 acres per pound. At this time there was a need to enlarge our budget in research to cover some of the p r o m ising surface area wrk. So we had ihe director present ihis new methcdandpoint out that it amounted to showing the soils h one's back yard might have as much as 40 acres per poundin hue area. We thought that this was veryimpressive and ihe S m t w s did too but fhey didn'tgive us any addifional money. This was in 1933 when money was very tight. Davis: Y w m e n t W the need to wmk on nitmgen fixation for two very
different goals: one, the productionof fertllhr and few, the other for production of explosives for desiructivepurposes in war. It seems thatat some point most scientific research has this dual naiure. WouMyouprovide us with some insight as to how you felt about this aspect of science duringyour early years and how you view the situation today? Emmen: You are touching on a very sensitive and highly personal question. For most research activities the question has a straightforward answer. Certainly one would not withdraw from research on ammonia catalysts because they might furnish the raw material for explosives as wellas fertiiizer. h the same sense working on medicalresearch shouidnot be avoldedmerelybecause it wouldhelp the militaryas well as ~Ivllians.My own decisions are ciear-i have worked on ammonia catalysts and also on the Manhaltan project. As a m n e r of fact Ihave remainedincontact with atomic work h some capaciiysincejoining the Manhananpmiect; for the last 22 years Ihave beenan active consultant at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. In general this is such a broadand indivldualizedsubject as to preclude a detailed discussion in the limitedspaceallowed for this interview. Davls: To gat back to BET, couldyou mention how your work in this came about'?And how you became associated with Dr.. Brunauer and Teller? Ernmen: When Iwent to the FixedNitrogenLaboratoryin 1926.1 was assigned to work with the iron synthetic ammonia catalyst and was given a free handio ascertainall Icoukiabouf what made a goodcatalyst, whatmade badcatalysts, howa catalyst worked, andso forth. /I occurredio me at the time that If one were io compare two catalysis, one very centralpiece of information wouldbe some Mea as io the surface area of each of the catalysts. No method existed as of 1932 for measuring the surface area of any finely divided material. We accordingly set out to try to determine the surface area of iron synthetic ammonia catalysts. Somewhat earlier, Dr. Benton, for whom Ihad worked in my graduate years, obtained catalysis from us andmade adsaption measuremenis fqra number ofgases. In one of his papers he remarkedihat when nitrogen was adsorbedat 19 1.59Ca curve was obtained that had kinks in it at 13.5 and 45 cm pressure. He ihdthese might be the wmpletlon ofa monolayer sugge~ted anda second layer, respectively, but didnot follow it further. We decided to start with this and made a number of adsorption isotherm experiments with nitrogen, argon, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and a few other gases. The "kinks" straightenedout when deviations from the perfect gas law were taken into account. On the other hand, the lower part of the absorption curve consisted of a smooth curve blending into a straight line. The straight line ranged from about 0.1 relative pressure to 0.5 relative pressure. /I seemedrather reasonable that the beginningof the straight line might mark the beginningof a second layer of adsorbed gas on the surface. So with this possibility in mind, we compareda number of gases anda number of catalysisand finally set upon the beginningof the straight portion of the curve as the point correspondingto a monolayer and designated bas point B. Point B was simply one of the points A.B,C,D,E Ifat repesented different locstions on the shaight line portionof isotherms. So, early in 1933. we hadarrived at a method for estimatinga cataiysi's surface by the use of the point B methodandmaking calculations on the surface area of various finely divided materials. If one assumed that the point B was the monolayer of adsorbedgas one could easily obtain the totalswface area by multiplying the number of molecules on this monolayer by the average estimated cross sectional area of the adsorbate being used. This enabled us to obtain surface areas for the various catalysis and materials upon which we worked. in 1933Dr. EdwardTeller came from Hungaryendjoined the George Washington UniversityPhysics Department. He was a well-trainedyoung physicist and was anxious to collaborate with anybody who had problems that he might be
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able to help out wlth. Myassistant andcollaboratorDr. BNnauer, who was of Hungarian origin, suggested that he talk with Teller about the possibility of working out a theory of these adsomtion curves. In due time. a set of eauations was developedbetween them, and we proceededto apply them to the data that we obtained at the Laboratow. Eventuallv. the experirnental and theoretical data were combined into one oaoer .surface . . known as the BET methodfor measuring areas. The project was, accordingly, a joint one in which I originatedan?plannedthe surface area work, Brunauer did the experimental work andcollaborated wim me on the point B methodand Ed Teller joined in with Brunauer in working out the theory to explain the experimental work. This is, in essence, how the BET work came about. Davis: Well, to get back to a field that is your first love, and that b catalysis. lt seems that 25 years ago, Dr. Pauling made predictions as to what would be accomplished in the next SO years for four major disciplines. On three he was very accurate. out the advances in understandhgof catalysis have fallen s M of his prediction. Do you have any m m e n b as to what you would expect to be accomplished in catalysis in the Mure, and what someone In the field shouM be looking for? Emmen: Ididn't know of the predictions that Pauling made, and Iem interestedin knowingthat he predictedihat catalysis would have a bright future. Iwould be inclined to say that, if this orediction was made in 1950. the .oroaress that has been made in the last 25 years in basic catalysis does point to a bright future. We still do not know all of the answers, and I woukiventure to say that another 25 years will be necessary before we begin to arrive ata point at which we can arbhriiy pick a catalyst as beingprobably about as good a catalyst as can be made for any reaction that we desire to study. We are a long way from doing that yet. But progress is clearly in sight and aN the new surface chemistry bringing in the elecironic gadgets; thaticost tens of thousands of dollars but prove to be veryeffective will, Ithink, help to make catalysis m e a n d m e scientific a n d m and mwe well established as the years go by. So Ilook to see a bright future for catalysis in the next 25 years. Davis: Your Chemisorption method for metalsurfaceareas is standard today but was developed in the '30s. Is there a story here also? Emmen: When we beoan workino on ironsvntheticammonia catal~sts. we realized that 1% potassium oxide and 1% aluminum oxide that were being added to the catalyst as promoters mi@t be accumulating on the catalyst surface. We setabout, therefore, to see if we could find a way of measuring the amount of any metallic surface left compared to the amouni covered by -. .promoters. One of the methods that suggested itself was the chemisorption of carbon monoxide. We had run across the chemisorption of carbon monoxide unexpectedly when we anempted to measure the adsorption curves that could be used in making surface area measurements on iron. We found that on pure iron catalysts N,. Ar, and COP,allgave physicaladsorptioncurves that were about the same size. The curves for CO were about two fold as high; in other words the adsorption was twice as great for CO as for N, on oure iron catalvsts. A few exoeriments on evacuationat 78'C and then recoolingand redetermining the isothermshowed that the excess CO that was adsorbed was chemimlly W a n d wwMfwm chemicalbonding with the iron even at 1959 C. practicallyinstantaneously. This was our introduction to the strong chemisorption of CO on iron. It occuned to us, therefore, that we might be able to differentiatebetween the iron and the rest of the promoter by exposing the iron catalyst to CO at 195' and determining the amount of chemisorption that was occurring as compared to physical adsorption. This worked out very suc~essfully in the iron catalysts. The CO was chemiswbed by the iron while CO, was chemisorbedby the potassium oxide andaluminumoxide promoter. lt enabledus, therefore,
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to give a pretty gwd estimate as to the fraction of Nr,surface covered by promoter and the fraction of the swface that was still imn. Later, this carbon monoxids chemisorptionbecame usefulas apneraimethod for measuring metals such as Ni, Co. Fe and even Cu. Copper chemisodm CO at liquidnibqlen temperature. Incidentally, in connection with this chemisorption business, the earlypaper that was publishedby my advisor, Or. Benton, was on the adsorption of hydrogen and oxygen on Diatinum. Isusoecf that it is vew basic to the current mefhods that are being'used for titratingthe amount of oxygen on the platinum surface by hydrogen. From this information one deduces the total amount of hydrogen on the surface and eventually the totalsurface area of the metalswface. &Nlton was ahead of his times, it would seem. Davis: lguess that this is an example of the 01dada.w . that those who do not read history repeat history. Emmett: Ithink that is true, and Ihave often run across the fact that people who are doing research seldom look back as much as 30 or 40 years. Since most of our work at the Fixed Nitrogen Laboatmy is now 40yem OM, we feel very often that it is quite neglected, but it is understandablebecause at the time Iwas starting research, if anyone hadaskedme to look back to papers in 1880, a matter of 40 years earlier, Iwould have thought It very foolish. Davis: You mentioneda scientist who is a rather unique individual, Dr. E. EmmenReid. Anyone who publishesa book on his lomh birthday has to be rather unique. Iremember when Iwas working for you, he wouldcallyou up and give you research ideas even when you were inyour 60's. How do people like YOU stay . so .vouno - so lono? Emmett: /haven't stayedyoung so-long yet, but Dr. Reid was a very outstanding case. He dida great service to catalysis in that he translatedSabatier's book in 1922. Most of his catalytic ideas were in organic chemistryso iwasn'table to help him out very much. But. even when he was 98 years old, Iremember Dick Kokes (who passedaway only recentlyat an early age--a great loss) and Ivisited him and he asked us questions that neither of us couidanswer. Even then he was thinking in terms of new experiments, and he onen stated when he was nearing 100years of age that he had enough catalytic work laid out to last him another lifetime. He maintaineda deep interest in science right up to his dying day. He publisheda great many of his W s andpapws aflw he was retiredat 65 and a great manyof them after he fwned
252 1 Journal of ChemicalEducation
blindat 85. He could touch type, and he couldhavepeople read for him so he continued~~blishin~ In spite ofhis bljndness. He always said "The way to be active is to be active." Ithink that this is the mly &la that /can give for longsvtty in scientific work. Davls: You are now past the 65 year markandhave "officialw retired even though you, in practice, have not yet retired. Do you have any advice for some chemist who Is nearing this stage of life? Emmen: Iwouldn't like to give advim to them, butlpersonaNyfeel that one who has spent a lifetime in sckntific work wouldbe very unhamv . to dm0 all of it and to have no further contact with 8. Ithink it is wall to m n g e ~ G Wretiringyeam in such a way that YOU do a linle bit of consultino or advisinoor writino or teaching or something that can keep you in contact with current science and current developments. Davis: In chwsingyour coworkers andgraduatestudents, what dldyou look for? Emman: Well, Itried to get as intelligentgraduate students as Icwld but Idon't know that Iwas ever very successfulat picking uniformly good people. Iwas Inclined to think the best of people and to be optimisticabout them; andin most cases, this has worked out very effectively: Ihave had some very brilliant shrdents, one of whom was RowlandHansford, who was my first graduate student. He has had a career in industrial catalyiic w& that has ledto the creation ofa number of important processes in the petroleum indusiry. But lheve no special formulas for picking graduate students or associates. 1try to get those that have good records of one kind or another and g w d recommendations. Davis: If w u were 21 now. what would vou want to do? ~mmen:~Hallthat's a big question. I f i were 21 andknewsomeofthe things that Iknow today, Iwould continue to plunge into catalyiic research, Ithink. But Ithink that one at 21, if he is interestedin science or research, has a brcad f i M to choose from today, all the way from biology to nuclear science. I would still follow a scientific career. if is not the way to make the most money h the world, but it is the way to get a very satisfactory living and a great deal of satisfaction in the course of one's life. The technologyof the future is going to be important to the welfare of everybody and finding out the facts i n a scientific life is both appealing and rewarding. Davis: It is always a disappohtment to end a discussion with you, but the way your enormous optimism shows through in the answer to the last question seems a likely spot to quit.
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