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ROBERT C.BRASTED UniverSity of Minnesota Minneapolis, MN 55455
Interview with R. C. Mehrotra and C. N. R. Rao Robert C. Brasted University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455
Braded: n is mv oieasure to have been associated with both of you . eentiemen .. for over I H O aecades I s moro tnan comcioence that )ou are ooln h m involveo n the plann.ng of me indo Amerlca? Cooperal vc Researcn Program Ths s only one more facet of )or "'ere% n n!ornill ona act r ltes it would be of interest to compare the factors influencing your choice of chemistry as a profession with others who have participated in our interviews. Mehrotra: My family was not one with a strong academic background. They were business oriented. There may be a misunderstanding on the part of our American friends that all indian "teachers" are of the Brahmin caste. Such is not the case in my family. My education did not come easily. My mother passed away when I was sin years old and my father when i was fineen. Thus i had to suppWt myself throughout my college years. As you know. the BSc is atweyear program, different from yours. This degree is followed by a two-year MSc program. Aner that training, i became a ieoturer at the University of Aiiahabad in the southern part of the state of Umr Pradesh. Brasted: i know that both of vou have auomsnted your formal education - -~ oes.do of nola, O.t 00th have retbrned lo nd a to p m b e )our careers Rao: M) ooctora siLoles were on the P.ro"e campLs H th Profes~orRonell L vmgslon was nlereslea in ooth pn)s cs an0 cnem su, ;n the .naergraoLale school. i had heard of Professor Herbert Brown and i cannot say enough about him andthe influencethat he has hadon my professional career. Both hiscontributions in synthesis and those of Llnus Psuling in structure fascinated me throuahout mv formative career. i knew Iwanted a research career and chose molecular structure and various aspects of spectroscopy. After graduation from Purdue, i returned to india. Afler several years i returned to accept an appointment on the Purdue campus as a visiting professor. i believe that i have had several publications with six or more members of the Purdue staff. I also had the privilege of working with Professor Kenneth Pitzer at Berkeley. Brasted: Varying experiences have been recounted by those interviewed relevant to the development of sclence interests. in some cases the spark has ,
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been through family influence: for others, experiences in mathematics, biology, physics. or Chemistry itself has served as a motivating force. Mehrotra: i would like to descrlbe my experience in the school known as Christ-GhurCh School located in Kamur: incidentiv where Dr. Rao served as nanximent ~ e.a-d in the institute of Technoloov -. of that ciN. Thisschooi not oniv nad an o.trunalng c h e m w ) !cacner 3.1 a good expcr menla procram: mion~natey, a phare of chemisq rot rsessed as m.dl ils .Irho.0 oe lncsr'a y s ~nUlis munvy me classes were populated with goal students, another important factor, since there was a great deal of competition in ail of our science and mathematics classes. A mathematiciannow at hinceton joined as a class-fellow in the final year of school. His name is Professor Harischantra. A competitive spirit generated due to his presence induced me to work very hard in the isst few months of the tenth class enabiino me to obtain third rank in Class X and f rst rsn.. ~nC ass Xi in :he ahoie of m e Qale of U P amongst aooln I00 000 cand wales it was not ~ n flne so-ca eJ MSc-Prm 3,s. ~n cn s the f rsl year of me Ma jter s program tnat pn)s ca cnemwfq cmrses musm me 10 ~ n i lho chemistry from mathematics. Rao: i cannot be as explicit as was Dr. Mehrotra on any one individual in secondary school science influencing me. Chemistry was the course in which i excelled in the eariy part of my schooling. One particular chemistry teacher did impress me with his demonstration approach. He made the smaii things impressive and exciting. i have tried to follow his example throughout my teaching career. in a sense, i was more impressed with his secondary course than with some of my later college courses. Braeled: Trying to categorize both of you wilh your broad interests in science is not easy. Dr. Mehrotra, you have built a strong warid-wide reputation in inorganic and, Dr. Rao, i wouldthink of you as a physicai-inorganic solibstate person. in neither case do i see your graduate training in these particular fields. Rao: This is true. I have aiwavs taken a structural aDDroach to the studv of ~
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The iMPACTeditor had the privilege of associating with both Professor Mshrotra and Professor Rao as part of an ongoing indo1Ametican Cooperative Research Program in January 1980 at which time the interv i e w ~were conducted. Both Professors Mehrotra and Rao are Fellows of the indian NationalScience Academy. Professor Rao was the recipient of the Centennial (1976) Distinguished Foreign Fellowship Award and Gold Key presented at the Centennial American Chemical Society meeting in New York. in the spirit of the iMPACT interview goal, which is to present to our readers something of the lives of those who have contributed to our orafession in the worid-wide sense,the thouahts of lhese IHO mcmoers 01 the ea.cal on proferson are .omm n so do ng. 11 1% nopeo mat ooln s m iar lies and oifforences in a s ng e co.mlq n oe n gn ghtea and, as He ooln s m ar t es an0 d fferences oclueen our two countries. ~~
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Professur C NR Raa, lormer rim0 of Chem suy andDeanof Rcrcorch. noan n s t l ~ l of e Tecnnolog,. Kanp., r now Professornnu haudal the So d State an0 Str~ct.ra. Cnemrnlry .n Ian0 Malor a s Rcrearcn -aooratory, indian institute of Science, Bangalare, india. Chairman-Education Comminee of the international Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC): he is also a member of the Bureau of IUPAC.
Profe950r R C Mehrolra 3 former \ ce-Chancel or of De nl ~n \ersll) an0 Rniasvrrn -0 wrri~y.Pa3l-Prn~'wnl of Ule lman Chemlci. Soce'y. he is c.rrenli) Professor of Chem str,. Raastnan . n i \ e f ~I) .a pdr. indla
Volume 59
Number 2
February 1982
113
emerging field weil over two decades ago. I suppose that i am self-taught for the most part, though i have studied extensively at Oxford and elsewhere to wpport my basic understandingof the subject. its interface with spectroscopy and other disciplines has made for a most exciting career this past decade. in a way, i've taken a missionary approach. The field was new in india, as well as in the USA for that matter. when i initiated mv research. Mv move from Kanour. -~ I T . as DI Menro'ra no'w a moment kga, lo nanga ore uas nacausn of 'rill oiler trw inoan nst t.te of Sc ence lo o. la lrom scralcn a nea department for salra-stale cnemlnr) 61 nai oeen a greal source of =a,: sfilcl on lo sec'rle feia grow here in india. in the last few years I have taken up the study of surfaces by spectographic techniques. This again is an emerging area of research. Mehrotra: The transition from physical chemistry (and mathematics)to inorganic chemisby was not difficult. in a way, inorganic chemisby involvingmetal atoms was quite new in my eariy years at Aiiahabad. Lecturingassignments there were in inorganic chemisby However,there was reaiiy nd very much research activity either there w elsewhere in this field. it is not unique in academe to move into a partial vacuum. in fairness tomy indian colleagues, Professors P. C. Ray and P. Ray, both of Calcutta University, had made outstanding contributions in the inorganic literature of the world. Brasted: Although the answer to one question posed for ail of our friends in the series is almost predictable, them are variations. You both have distinguished research reputations and, as well, are both outstandingteachers. Have you felt the1 these are different ,oaris of the orofession? Mehrotra: My ans*er prooao s lnc prca clao e one ho me, are no1 a f ferenl M, m0.c: lo marsanr rewarm s . ~ w u s a con1rmalon of ih s r rnw nl. i mer.! onea lne h ~ q.a n r) of s..oenss ih nnom naeassoc ale0 Tn s has not oniy at school, but at Aiiahabad and throughout my career. i have always encouraged student-teacher interaction in lecture. A student posed a question in one of our informal discussions on phthaiein dye chemistry and adsorption indicators. whether dves derived from other dibasic acids could aiso be emeioved ~
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from our current metal-oxygen organometaiiic research. Brasted: i cannot heip but interject a comment that came from an interview from a very close friend of both yours and mine. Professor John C. Bailar. Jr. Ae related a similar incident in the wey his inorganic and stereochemistry research was stimulated by a comment of an introductory chemistry student wantina to know what differences there were in heavv metal axvchiorides and
When one does basic research. Idon't see how one can be "quiey' abod it.Thus learning (which we aiso call research) experiences with others as a teacher. How can you be a good teacher without the iearning-researchscholarship input? With this point of view, I have devoted much of my efforts in writing to materials for the secondary and college students. i have and continue to participate in training programs for teachers. i need todo these things tofuifill my roie as a chemist. Brasted: The funding of research is a problem not uniquetoany one country. in my seven opportunities to participate in educational and research programs in india over nearly two decades, it has seemed that india has had to struggle uncommonly hard to obtain this kind of financial support. Mehrotra: Support was indeed very meager up to perhaps the mid-60's. We had to modihi our research oroorams to match the available funds, onen YOU share your
has been a drawback in those universities with which i have been associated. We have synthesized many compounds that arestiii in need ofanalysis andstdy by toois that are not aiways available in our research laboratories. We have an organizationwiled the Universny Grants Commission, established in 1954. that serves the whole country in maintaining standards in educational sustems. -,- ~ - Another aaencv is the Council ot Sciemific Research and industw which is set up to aid applied research. We also have your counterpart of the National Academy of Science which we call the indian National Science Academy. RBO: Iagree with Professor Mehrotra in his evaiwtion of tunding. When i first returned to india from studies and the several staff appointmentsabroad. I. for instance, found no spectrometer where i was expected to do spectroscopy. Eventually with the heip of the US at the indian institute of Technology at Kanpur we did develop a wellequipped laboratory. in the past few years there has been a real improvement. My move from Kanpur to Bangaiore. as i mentioned earlier, was prompted not by dissatisfaction at Kanpur, but by the offer to develop my own laboratory in solid-state and sbucturai chemistry with ihe basic funding being provided for instrunlentation in surface and solid-state chemistry. i tend to lose patience with some of the young students trained abroad who come back to india expsning to be dropped into a ready-made, fully equipped and staffed laboratory. YOU may not aiways expect to be that weil treated in the States. Since many of my US academic friends are concerned about the future of indian doctorai students trained abroad, a few comments might be made. it is true that permanent positions in india at a level the person hopes for are hard ~
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rome o) T w r c are 'emporar) pos I uns fur L . w ,one Of co.rse HP m..SI harder 10 I no apcmpr ale PO?,! o m a i we Iits to crea!e me o m pow ole atmosprore for a.r ne I-tra n r 1 p w p I. VVd are 'n nn ng of c a r w :l+.elupmmt awards such as you have which wouid aiso allow basic research to be done over three to four years and wouid be essentially unrestricted. The eariy years are tough, but it is possible to moveahead. May i add a final note on funding? i am much indebted to the United States for heip in certain areas. Support from the National institute of HeaiUl and the NationalBureau of Standards in the early Years "1 m) career a a m me gwtt .n dcvuiopmenl of m) resear:h pr0gl.m Also. I lhro.qn - S !.no ng ine ns!itut+: of Tecnnooq) ar i(anplr wnz crl. w e 0 n :n m e uest of eq. omen, n inc ii:cs. Brasted: 0.r raaoers nt gnt noqoe lam lhar 8 I"cena n of lhc a b sons of ten ar) ~ d ~ k l i in o nnu J Dr. Menr0.13 has men V ce-Cnancc lor a l l m maor universities: Ragastan and Deihi. These universities are likely to be more similar to our own. How does the indian Institute of Science in Bangaiore differ? Ram indian institute of Science, Bangaiore, has oniy PhD Programmes in Sciences. We teach araduate coursesand wide research students at PhD and POS:~OLIUI~I P W W sho~la zdq-na ancr lao to my '1" cr ua'rl n l e 2 U ncano l researcn at i S. I sfso spena some 1 me n r o Ing m e l o e 2 n . l o ~ r mofChem,cal Educationand in teacher education. Mehrotra: You have pointed to the dud roie that i have played in many years in administration and teaching. The time needed to do both has not been easy to find, especially while at Deihi University.This isan institutionof some 150,000 students with a correspondingly iarge faculty and support staff. It was necessary throuoh ~~.those Years to out in 15 and more hours a dav. seven days a week to h w p from qomrl mner Tn 5 ac.ia mem tnal nine morn ng lrom 5.00 a m 10 aooA 9 03 ,.nl !nu I me r a s resenw lor d ~c,s>.unH 'rl researcn slxenlr ano aooraloq 3 IS Aficr 9 0 0 m~ .!he adm n wmrr nor* .+as :ommencea In your visits to india. Bob. you know that at times our students can be very volatile. Great diplomacy is needed in handling iarge student bodies. I believe that my record in dealing with studentsat the University of Delhi was a respectable one. The day would continue until 6:00 in the evening or later. The evenina hours were usuaiiv filled with s ~ e c i asocial i and academic functions. h o ~nr Lome the cnance 10 x m c r ill inc .>esl 103 n lne w r l o prufdssor oi c h e m . ~ ~e\en n lno~qn a resronaa) neai 1team nc an3 resrarcn o x is cxpected. Brasted: You both have been prime movers in education. Do you see in the indian system any changes over the past decade or two: improvements; changes in student training? Mehrotra: As you know. in the mid sixties and into the seventies there were strong efforts to update and retrain college and schoai teachers in science and mathematics through the Summer Institutes. These were productive. However. we are still deficient in instrumentation. There is a need even now to fabricate much of what we use. We are still deficient in technical assistants and support staff for maintenance of instruments. The caliber of students admitted to our universities. however. is good, but recently better students are being attracted to business administration and management, which offer better chances of employment. RBO: May i add that the altitude of the student body is far more relaxed than in my day. They are more knowledgeable and certainly interested in a variety of things outside of science. The result is obviously less time devoted to science, at least less time to chemistry than i think is proper. There is another positive side The student is bener prepared in relateddisciplines man i was. For example, the preparation is better in mathematics, physics. and biology. Perhaps i am fortunate but i feel that i do have excellent students in my research group. Brasted: How do each of you go about making an evaluation of a student? How do youdecide whether a young person has a future when he or she requests entrance into your research group? Rao: May i try to answer first? i find little use in transcripts by themselves. although most outstanding research applicants have good academic records. Exams themselves tell very iinie about creativity. I would prefer several hours of conversation to make a judgement. Mehrotra: I have used, in addition to the conversation approach, another technique. Most. but not ail. of our students come from the MSc Program which essentially continues coursework beyond the BSc. it is not reaiiy a research dearee. i will reauest the ootentiai PhD to do a brief iiterature survev on some 10c c POW o ) re: ,L~VJ :o toe researcn 1rnt * O L i $..ent.a , ass qn n m or ner Ia c c e p w ~ . ng . in ,scarrn as i oas s tor o..r crwersia on, car lnro~qhme OISCSS OW. malo w n w icdscnso, goo2 ~ d g c m c n& f mere =re qJesl ons. perhaps a more indepth literature search wouid beassigned followed by further and, in turn, indepth discussions. Rao: There is anpther part of our Indian educational system apart from the of the student. i wouid like to comment on it since my experience in the United States leads me to believe that we share the orobiem. i feel that we are plot Iwa' ng o w grdJ.ale e o x a l 0 7 on chrn slr). We, in& 0 ConCenlralr o..r ~ p p o un n < l : n ~ rn g t ~Sba I, deDar1men.s Tnrre .r non a sol1 of veneer of i win? ~ . l l e r100:n n He harc >.no ng or f nan: s l~pporl 1 5 i he ~ ~ r r n~ some departments in India producing 150 doctoratesa year when there should be ten. Still another issue is that of Ule lack of versatility in our university teaching faculties. Our people oflen are too narrow in their interests. You might say they :O
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