JOHN C. BAILAR, University of Illinois Urbana
lnterview with John C. Bailar, Jr. by Robert C,Brasted
ROBERT C. BRASTED University of Minnesota Minneapolis
Brasted: John, many of our readers, as you know, are young people moving into the field of chemistry. They are always interested and concerned wlth those who have made an impact, not only in the community of scientists, but in their own personal lives. Could you give us something of your background knowing, as I think I do. that you were born in Colorado. Perhaps some of the factors that influenced you in your choice of the pmfession. Could there have been parental influences or teachers in the science field? Bailac My father was a teacher of chemistry. In fact, a wonderful teacher. He taught at the Colorado School of Mines. I used to go to the laboratory and watch him with great interest. He would let me carry out routine operations such as filtrations and, in general, serve as an assistant. I really learned a lot of chemistry when I was vefy, very young. I remember that even before I went lo school, I asked him one day why the formula of hydrogen peroxide was written H202 instead of just HO. He, of course, clarified the point. I think he had the greatest Influence on my choice of chemistry as a career. I don't really remember that I ever made a distinct choice that I want& to be a chemist. -It simply seemed to evolve that way. Family influence, of course, may be expected long aFter childhood. My wMe. Florence, had a tremendous influence on my scientific career. It was subtle, but very important. Throughout her life, she encouraged me in every way, as for example, in my habits of hard work and ofassuming increasing responsibilities In my profession. She never complained when my chemical activities kept us from a p a w or a family gathering, though she loved both of these. When I was discouraged, she IIFted my spirits: when I achieveda success, she rejoiced with me. Brasted: I. as a matter of fact, remember your father very weN. He used to visit us in the laboratory at Urbana. He was a very warm and knowledgeable man. In your secondary training. did you feel that there were influential people, either high school teachers or other science teachers that impressed you? Bailar: We% not as chemists. I think I had an excellent high school education. but I would say that my high school chemistry
teacher was probably not up to the level of some of the others. However, sometimes if's not so much the disclpline as It is the individual who is influential. Brasted: May we then skip to your tertiary education? Where dldyou do your Bachelor's Lkgree? Bailac The University of Colorado at Boulder. I also receiveda Master's Degree at Boulder. There I thought I had some extremely good teachers, both in chemistry and in other fields. For the first two years, I had Professor Ekeley, a very fine teacher in the general and organic courses. He was also Head of the Department and h b lnfhence was substantial. Brasted: As you made your plans to go to Graduate School, did you have some preconceived notion as to where and with whom you wanted to work? Bailar: Really not. An atypical sequence of events occurred. 1 was chosen by the Alpha Chi Sigma Chapter to represent them at the Biennial conclave in Pittsburgh. Since I had never been East before. I thought it would be worthwhile to stav somewhere in the East to attend summer school. This was between graduation with a Bachelor's Degree in the sorino and before starilm work on my Master's De. gree. I simply looked over catalogues of s good many lnstltutions, that is, ones that I thought of as being in the "East." h e University of Michigan, of course, was prestioious and Its summer term fit my calender. Brasted: with whom did you work at ~ i c h k a n ? Bailar: Professor Moses Gomberg. Brasted: Could we say that youhad "researched" Moses Gomberg as a person wlth whom to work? Bailac Not really. but I learned much about him during the intervening summer and the following academic year. Remember.
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Professor John C. Bailar, Jr. is emeritus professor of chemistry at the University of Illinois. Known and respected for his extensive and pioneering work in coordination chemistry, for his exceptional ability to influence students, and for the large number of his former students who have been successful in academic work, Dr. Bailar was president of ACS in 1959. He was recipient of the Priestley medal in 1964. Volume 53, Number 3, March 1976 / 139
ireturned to Colorado for my Master's Degree after the Pinsburgh Conclave. Iwas very fortunate that he accepted me because he would never have more than two or three graduate students at one time. Brasted: That's quite a change from our current system of building large research groups when money and people are avaiiable. Bailac Yes, that's right. Normally Professor Gomberg chose graduate students from those who had been Michigan undergraduates. That is, after a student graduated with a BS in chemistry, he would work perhaps for a year with Professor Schoepfle, and i f he showed great promise. he would continue his work for the doctorate with Gomberg. Professor Gomberg came from Russia when he was sixfeen yean old. Brasted: So essentially your training had something of a European flavor Baiiac Although he had hadail of his college training in America, he ran his research group very much as a European would have. Frankly, i felt that I was a bit over directed. He came into the laboratory as many as five and six times a day for conferences. Brasted: That probably explains why two or three students would be as much as anyone could handle. Bailac Yes, that is probably so. We did preny much as he told us to do. We weren't on our own very much of the time. He was an excellent teacher, however, and Ienjoyed him and my association with him. Brasted: You were trained through your doctorate essentially as an organic chemist i f you worked with Gomberg. Bailac Yes, although Idid a Master's Degree at Colorado in inorganic chemistry on sulfur and selenium tetranitrides. As a matter of fact, Ihad no inorganic chemistry at aN at Michigan. iwent to lilinois as an organic chemist. Brasted: There must be a story here, John. At what point did you find your interests directed toward research and teaching in the inorganic field? Bailac As an organic chemist. Iwas interested in the subject of isomerism. Ibegan my research during my second year at Illinois on the isomerism of organic compounds. I was teaching a group of freshmen. We had on the blackboard the equation for the hydrolysis of antimony chloride, giving SbOCi. One of the students in the class asked me about that "hypochlorite". itried to explain the difference between an oxychioride and a hypochiorite. While we were talking about these two kinds of compounds, it occurred to me that i f one had a monovalent metal ion, he could form a hypochiorite. But i f this same metal had a valence of +3 and formed an oxychioride, these compounds would be isomers. in a sense, it was a new concept for me that there could be inorganic isomers of this type. Itried to make thallium (I) hypochlorite and thaliium (lli) oxychloride. i never got the thailium(1) hypochiorite. The thalious ion is easily oxidized and the hypochioriie ion is a oowerful oxidizinq aqent. Itried to make some other isomers of this kind. A selenosulfate and a sulfoseienat~ are cases in ooint. As you wen know, heatinga solution of sodium sulfite with sulfur gives sodium thiosulfate. One can take sodium sulfite and boil it with selenium and get selenosulfate. But you can't start with sodium selenite and sulfur and get thioseienite. The sulfur just isn't a strong enough oxidizing agent to convert selenium(iV). Naturally, as Igot further into the study of inorganic isomerism, i was bound to become involved in coordination compounds. Brasfed: Would it be possible to describe in a few words the state of the "art" in coordinatbn chemistry when you first entered the field? This would be in the late twenties and early thirties, would it not? Baiiac Yes, 11 ' 1try. As far as the United States is concerned, there were few people who were then doing any coordination chemistry. Professor Lamb of Harvard published atiicles on rare occasions, perhaps every year or two. Professor
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Schiesinger at Chicago had done some work. However, that was about it. Actoaliy Schiesinger had by that time entered the field of boron hydrides. There were one or two others doing coordination chemistry, but not very many. Brasted: There certainly was nothing comparable to the Werner School, was there7 Baiiac Certainly not! When Istarted out on this kind of research on a full scale. i was almost the only person in the United States interestedin Werner complexes. Brasted: We ofien think of coom'ination chemistry and its development as a sort of renaissance of inorganic chemistry. 1 think there's a certain amount of truth to that. icertainly do not intentionally wish to overlook your countless contributions to the field of inorganic chemistry not only in research and teaching, but can you summarize one, two or perhaps, three things in your research areas that have probably had the greatest impact on the scientific community? Baiiac Imyself feel that I've aifacked really three different broad topics. One is stereochemistry, which is really where Igot my start. During World War IL Iconcentrated on coordination polymers. During the last seven or eight years, I've involved myself in coordination compounds as catalysts. I've enjoyed the stereochemistry but Ican't really tell you what impact it has had. AN Iknow is that the articles in this field have resulted in many, many requesb for reprints. Other chemists seem to read them and feel they have contributedboth to the industrialand academic communities. Perhaps that work has had more influence, partly because istarted it eariy. h e work on catalysts. particulariy on selective hydrogenation catalysts, might have had more industrial importance but I'm not certain that it has more scientific meaning. Brasted: i think of the very well recognized "Bailar Twist Mechanism"as having hada large impact in the field. Obviously, we classify this as part of your stereochemistry. Very early, also, you translated the Walden inversion into cwrdination systems, did you not? Bailac Yes, this is true. Actually, the work on the Waiden Inversion was the first work which Idid in inorganic chemistry on coordination systems. incidentally, the first three or four papers were ail done with undergraduateresearch help. Brasted: That bridges us over into another area, John. When Iinitiated my work with you, in the late thirfies and early foflies, we really operated on the proverbial shoe string. Could you summarize some of your thoughts in the transition from essentially no funding or some state funding to the extensive external funding we now have? Baiiar: Of course, funds have given me a chance to work with a great many more research students than Iwould have had otherwise. idon't think universities would have had in toto as many graduate students as they have had unless somebody had come up with this kind of money. In the early days of my career, the university had a limited number of feliowships for graduate students. Almost everybody else earned their way by teaching part time. My guess is that i f there hadn't been federal funding, there wouldn't be nearly as many graduate studenh and Iwouldn't have had as many so Icouldn't have done so much work. It's that simple. Brasted: Have you felt over the past decades that you have not been able to do as much as you would have liked to have done if you had had more funding? That is, would you have hadnew areas into which you might have moved? Bailar: Oh, yes, definitely. Ihave a long list of things that iwant to do. You ofien hear the story that brilliant research, imaginative research is always done by younger people. idon't really believe this. Ithink that if a man is any good (let's say a man or a woman) he finds himself very soon on a multiple assignment of comminees and involved in all kinds of administrative posts and duties. Under these con-
ditions, a person simply doesn't have time for the research that he wishes he had or that he had when he was just starting his academic career. Once he leaves the administrative chores, if he's still alive, he wiil have as many good ideas as he did before. Brasted: That point suggests another question. You have now been on the Emeritus status for some three years. Do you feel that you now have more time for research than before? Bailar: Yes. There are many ideas that I wish to pursue. I have sent in proposals recently to two funding agencies. ff may be simply a fact of life but it's unfortunate that the granting agencies prefer to give their money to the youngerpeople to help them get started in their pmgrams. 1 feel that / have lost financial support on a number of occasions because of this philosophy. Brasted: i am sure you wiil remember the deiightful occasion of your sixty-fifth birthday when some 85 % or 90 % of your graduate students and hundreds of your friends met to do you honor in Urbana in 1969. At that time, you may recall, I "assigned" a lecture title to you as the first recipient of the John C. Bailar Medal. I certainly am not going to ask you to repeat your award address which supposedly carried this title of "Ouondam Fuimus et Ouo Vadimus." Nevertheless, I wonder if you would carry out the charge which, as I translate it, means "Where Have We Been and Where are We Going. " Where do you think we are going in the field of coordination chemistry? Bailac Coordination chemistry has expanded enormously. It's a little like the knight who jumped on his horse and "rode off in aN directions." Certainly i think that the field of catalysis, both homogeneous and heterogeneous, is one area that is going to continue to expand. I recently have written s review article entitled "Heterogenizing Homogeneous Catalysts." You know this is a very interesting topic. You can take a homogene~lscatalyst and fix it on a solid suppod or matrix of some sort You can chemically bind it to the support or use physical binding procedures. It still shows the same kinetics as it did when it was a homogeneous system. Now, however, the catalyst is much easier to recover and much easier to use since it is in this heterogeneous form. This article has resulted in more than a hundred requests for reprints. It's obvious that the theory of acids and bases, which really grew out of the basic concepts of coordination chemistry, is still expanding. Interestingly enough, stereochemistry itself is expanding. Great chemists are working on coordination compounds. Obviously there is enough work to justify a Journal and occupy a good fraction of the space in Inorganic Chemistry, our basic Journai for the field. Brasted: i often feel, and i think many others do, that we don't attach the prefix "bio" to our proposals we're not going to be funded or read. Do you have any comments on the role that coordination chemistry plays in the physiological chemistry or biochemical field? Bailar: I. of course, should have mentioned that this is perhaps the most rapidly growing field involving metal ions. As you are well aware, both of the inorganic award acceptance speeches at the Philadelphia Spring Meeting of 1975 were on coordination chemistry applied to biological systems. This field is now and will continue to be wide open. Practically everybody now working in coordination chemistry seeks some applications to living systems or to biological phenomena. Brasted' This offen translates to associations of metal ions with molecular species such as oxygen and nitrogen, that is, nitrogen fixation at ambient conditions. Bailar: That's right. Also, the enzymes are often metal containing species. Another very rapidly growing field is illustrated here. it's interesting that aN of the metals in the periodic table, from vanadium to zinc, are essential to life: vanadium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobalt, nickel, copper. andzinc although we may not necessarily classify the iast
two in the transition category. In the next row in the Periodic Table we find molybdenum as an essential element. There are doubtless other elements that we'll find are essential to human life. Brasted: Now, since we're talking to and for the Journal of Chemical Education, it's not unnatural to reooest vour thouohts on . , what sometimes appears to be an unfortunate dichotomy, thowh I doubt that you think of it as such. nor do I. that is. teaching and research. i can't think of a person who better exemplifies the parallel of teaching and research. However, have you ever fen that your teaching responsibilities have interfered with or taken time which you jealously gua& for research? Bailar: No, not at aN I've enjoyed both my teaching and research. Fortunately I have a very strong constitution so that if a student has wanted an hour of my time for instruction or general interaction in the teacher-student mode, i would simply stay up an hour later if the time was needed for re' search. Brasted: Then you don't see an incompatibility? Bailac Oh, no! i think the two go together. As I mentioned, I got into this whole isomerism business because of the question that a freshman asked me. One of the first students that 1 had in the stereochemistry field came to me when he was a senior and said he wanted to work with me because when he was a freshman he had enjoyed my lectwes. I am sure that you would agree that instructional methods are used in both places, the lecture room and the research laboratory. Don't we teach while we are directing research? Brasted: Let me take a not altogether hypothetical question. A student knocks on your door and says in effect, "i'd like to work with you, Dr. Baiiar." is there anything that you look for or look at in a student-either his record, attitudes, appearance, or anything else-that would suggest that he or she would have the potential for success as a chem ist? Bailar: That's a very difficult question to answer, because I don't recall that I have ever turned a student away if he or she has asked to work with me. i have certainly recoonized that some have much more potential than others but even to those that I thought didn't look very . .~romisino.I have not said. "No, I don't want you to work with me." I feel strongly that you can teach anybody if he or she really wants to learn. Brasted: I've felt strongly over the years that I've been in the business that success or failure in a Department often will be control~edby many of the admhistratiw operatims, curricula, and so forth. You have seen tremendous changes in administrative operations in Departments. Are there major changes that y w look for in curricula in the future? What do you expect to find in a sound chemistry major curricula? Bailar: There3 been a lot of correspondence on this in Chemical and Engineering News as well as other educationaNy and professionally oriented magazines and journals in the iast few years. Many of them concern themselves with the desirability of having courses in which students are exposed to industrial practice and to the industrialacademic interface. i think that this is a healthy trend and is most important. Of course, years ago we used to talk about industrial processes, for example, how compounds are made in industry That has almost disappeared. Most chemistry teachers are now teaching theoreticai concepts almost exclusively. This, I think, has gone too far. Many of o w younger teachers don't really know how chemicals are made on an industrial scaie. They neither teach it nw do they find it very interesting themselves. To me it's a aery interesting subject and I think we should teach our st"dents m e a b w t industrial processes, indeed the general subject of descriptive chemistry. i even now get a great deal of satisfaction from a course that I had years ago in
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mineralogy and how it tied in with inorganic chemistry Of course, many years ago, it was very common for a university or college to have a "Professor of Chemistry and Mineralogy " h e two are actually closely related. l would emphasize that I think we should have somewhat more descriptive chemistry but. particularly, more industrial aspects. A student deserves to know how much a very s i m ple organic chemical may cost and, on the other hand, how very cheap ammonia and sulfuric acidare. Brasted: l sympathize and agree, especially when I found very recently a graduate student in inorganic chemistry telling me that industrial nitrogen was produced by the thermal decomposition of ammonium dlchromate. But I suppose there is no way of relating the total quantity of materials produced to the amount of time we devote to a subject. otherwise we'd be spending about 80% of our time on sulfuric acid. Do you feel that we are operating within a reasonable framework of the time devoted to the several disciplines, that is, analytical, organic, inorganic, physical? And, we certalnly also have the hybrid areas of biochemistry with these traditional divisions. Bailac l thlnk biochemistry and the "bioborderline" areas are increasing in importance and are really well taken care of. Another important and rapidly growing field is that of organo-metallic chemistry. There was a time when organometallic chemistry was neglected because the organic chemists didn't accept it and the inorganic chemist didn't quite accept it. Now it's pretty well molded into the curriculum as a part of inorganic chemistry. Brasted: Those of us who know you so well as a person anda great humanitarian probably could foresee your answer but, do you feel that the scientist has any special responsibility in our modern life: that is, in our interaction wlth other nations, and wlth, for instance, the innercity, to mentlon but a few of man's relation to man? Bailar: I think the chemist doesn't have a greater responsibility, but he does have a greater knowledge of some of the problems you mention, and those of the atmosphere and the total environment. Problems such as these are not going . . to be solved by politicians. They're going to be solved by scientists. The politician certainly has his role bof we are dealing with technical questions, the answers to which will be found by the scientists. Brastee l suppose I am using the words of the "man on the strest" who savs. "You scientists created the problem, now you solve it. " What would be your reaction? Bailar: l feel that that's a poorly thought out accusation: at least it's overly simplistic. After the first World War, chemistry was just starring in America. Its odor literally was not improved because of the poison gases that were produced during that conflict, as well as the explosives. Many people thought then and still think of chemistry as a destructive science. You asked if the scientist had a unique sense of res~onsibilitb: I think chemistry has done far more good than harm Certainly everyone has responslbiiities. I don't thlnk that the chemist has any more responsibility than do other people. Assume for instance that I have made a discoverv and l report the results. Some people could use the results for good and some could use it for evil. i simply . . can't feel that I am responsible when a discovery is used for other than that for which it was intended. Brasted Could we delve a little deeper into your non-scientific life. John? What associations or activities do you think, directly or indirectly, made you a better chemist? Perhaps not necessarily in the pure textbook sense. Bailac l suppose i have always had an abiding interest in people. This may not have made me a better chemist but I feel it made me a better teacher and certainly, a better advisor. This interest came directly, I'm sure, from my home training and family environment. My mother, especially, was deeply interested in such activities as peace movements.
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She believed that a human life is literally priceless. Naturally, we grew up with the feeling that we had to do things to help people. This certalnly had an especially great lmpact on me when l was handling the Departmental Placement Program at the University of Illinois as well as the Advisorship to Alpha Chi Sigma, a post that I held for a long time. I consider that these operations were amongst the most rewarding activities that l have ever had. Many times former students have commented on some interview that they had wlth me when they were selecting a job. Each of many has said that this brief interaction was a turning point in his or her life. At the time, to me, it was hardly more than a half an hour or 15 minutes of interview but to the boy or girl who was selecting a job, it was a tremendously important event. Brasted: Do you think. John, that perhaps we have some special respon$bilities or perhaps a speciai role that we may not be always aware of as teachers? Perhaps the student is really looking for a "hero." Not one in the old image of Frank MerriweN but none the less, an ideal. As I look about me in this day and age. l don't see very many ideals. Perhaps the teacher should work harder at being one. Bailar: Perhaps there is something to this. l don't know just how far to go with it but l think a teacher is not just a person who delivers knowledge out of a texfbook or a series of textbooks. He is an advisor, he is a counselor, he is a friend and, as you probably know, l always felt that. when i accepted a student for graduate work, l was accepting a life long friend and a life long obligation. Brasted: That's true and 11 ' 1 vouch for it. That is the way your students feel about you now. There's never really been a change in status here. We are all still closely associated. almost as a large family. You have two sons, John lli and Benjamin Franklin. l guess they realiy did not follow, professionally, directly in your footsteps. Do you think that their home training has had a bearing on the way in which they have pursued their careers? Bailac Oh yes! l think that a child will live up to or try to live up to the expectations which his parents put before him. I know that my parents constantly kept after my sister and myself They expected us to have goals and to strive for them. My mother always hoped that I would earn a Rhodes Scholarship, but I never quite reached that goal. It was certainly a goal that she set for me. Our two sons were subject to the same sort of treatment in our home. We told them constantly in many ways. "You are a very special person, you've got something special going for you and you should develop it to your utmost and become a highly successfuland worthwhile citizen. " Brasted: i guess the message was clear and certainly is now. If you don't have a goal, then there is not much to live up to. Bailac That's right. We certainly could take a lesson from the Jewish faith. A child in that faith is told. "Yooare speciai. You are chosen by God " They do their best to live up to such a charge. Basted: John, do you see any area or areas of chemistry or science in general that are being neglected now? Should we be focusing on new areas? Bailac l've thought about this a good deal because l've worried, in my own case, in spite of what l told you earlier, about whether stereochemistry has really contributed somethlng to civilization. Should l do something that is more relevant to the problems of today? l don't realiy see anything that has to be done that isn't already being attacked by other people although perhaps not quite as efficiently as we might hope. Surely, there's much research to be done in medical science learning more about cancer, about arthrltis and aN the other diseases that cause pain and suffering. Problems, as they come up, are leaped upon almost simultaneously by large numbers of investigators. When I was first starting my career, l was advised to get into a
field that was "hot." I might be able to compete with other people, but anyihing that I might discover would be discovered by somebody eke, any way. There are always a lot of people working in any "hot" field. It seemed to me that if I were to get into a field where nobody else was working, I could contribute more. If I didn't do it, then nobody would. Brasted: Do you think, along those lines. that we might lose the productivity and imaginativeness by being told, in many cases by the government, fhat here is where the money is and you'd better work in that field? Let's face it, this is aC most what we're being told now, to the point where Congress even is assuming the right to pre-judge all research areas and expenditures in these areas. Bailac I think this is very bad. No, I think a person ought to work on a subject which is exciting to him, something he's going to enjoy. If he adopts a research program because he feels. "Sure I can get some money and some students and write some papers." I don't think he's on the right track. If the work is not really exciting to him. he'd better leave if alone. Brasted: Over the past decade or so, there has been a dissolving of divisional or specialty lines. Do you agree? If so. does it represent progress? Bailar: Borders have become obscured and, yes, I guess there is more crossover in areas simply because the areas have expanded and grown into each other. I don't think that there is any conscious effort to bring this about. This is just natural growth. At the same time, this means that every chemist has to know a much broader area than he used to have to know and nobody is bright enough to know the whole field. There can't be now, as there were some decades ago, just plain chemists, who cover the whole field. Brasted' Finally. John, supposing we could open up a magic lamp
and drop back a year or two and come back to say the age fwenty-one. You're now a freshly trained BS, perhaps not even in chemistry. Would you choose any different area or map out a different career? Bailar: I don't think so. No, I've onen thought fhat other fields would be exciting; archeology, for example, or architecture, but 1 think that if I were going to do it again. I'd probably do about the same thing even wifh the knowledge that i have. Remember. Bob, if I were twenty-one again, I'd do the same thing I didat twenty-one just because I was twentyone. No, I've been very, very content with my decision and also wifh my decision as to where to teach and what sort of life to lead. Brasfed: There are not many universities larger than Illinois or with larger undergraduate student bodies. You don't think that you would have had a more satisfying career dealing with. let's say, smaller numbers of students in perhaps a smalC er institution? Bailar: No. A teacher can deal with a smaN number of students on an intimate basis even in a big school. Brasted: That's true and others you have trained will agree with just that concept andphiiosophy. Bailar: I've had thousands and thousands of students listen to my lectures. Some have come to see me in my office to fell me their troubles and I've tried to help them. I suppose as many students have done this if i were teaching in a small school What I was thinking is that I've had opporhlnities to go to other schools or I could have taken industrial jobs or government jobs. 1think if i were to do B again, I would say no to those offers. I've been very happy. Brasted: I am sure that history has proven that you have made a wise decision. Your academic children and grandchildren number in the hundreds. I know that each one of them, in whatever field, is doing his or her best lo continue in the Bailar Tradition. We thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.
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